龔鵬程對話海外學者第一百零一期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授（Professor Mark Csikszentmihalyi）

加州大學伯克利分校國際關系講席教授，宗教研究項目主任。

龔鵬程教授：您好。您《物質(zhì)美德：早期中國的倫理與身體》一書談到了五行及人體的道德反應等等，十分精彩。但五行觀念可能是戰(zhàn)國晚期才流行，早期儒、道、墨、法、名、兵各家似乎都還沒太談到五行學說，而陰陽五行主要運用于宇宙論方面，五行與倫理學和身體觀的連結(jié)，好像更晚些。您覺得呢？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：龔教授，您好。您的問題呼應了已故科學史學家南森·席文提出的許多觀點，他的工作將自然周期歷史化，形成了一些人口中的中國"關聯(lián)宇宙論 "的基礎。

然而，將"五行 "確定為宇宙論是在講述關于它的某個故事，暗示它是基于對自然的觀察，然后通過類比應用到其他領域。

在他關于"自然主義者 "的文章中，席文批判性地看了這個假設。雖然我不認為有近乎足夠的證據(jù)來確定這種五行組合范例是行星、內(nèi)臟、核心的音樂音調(diào)、味道還是美德，但席文的工作鼓勵我們質(zhì)疑這種假設，即自然哲學應被默認為在當時是首要的。

談到我自己的工作，我試圖在《物質(zhì)美德》中提出的一點是，美德是以一種特殊的方式結(jié)構(gòu)化的：《孟子》的四種美德可能在第五個術(shù)語中達到高潮，即圣。從結(jié)構(gòu)上看，這些五行與歷史圖式中五行的循環(huán)模式不同，后者也與醫(yī)學傳統(tǒng)中的規(guī)范平衡概念相聯(lián)系。

換句話說，盡管所有這些都以數(shù)字五為特征，但這并不意味著它們都是一個主題的變化。更具體地說，這些不同的五行結(jié)構(gòu)可能是沿著不同的途徑發(fā)展起來的，然后在秦漢大一統(tǒng)時被綜合起來。

Your question echoes many points made by the late Historian of Science Nathan Sivin, whose work historicizing the natural cycles that formed the basis of what some have called Chinese “correlative cosmology.” Yet, to identify thewu xing as cosmological is to tell a certain story about it, implying it was based on the observation of Nature, and then later was applied by analogy to other realms. In his essay on the “Naturalists,” Sivin looked critically at that assumption. While I do not think that there is nearly enough evidence to determine whether the paradigmatic fivefold set was planets, viscera, the core musical tones, flavors, or virtues, Sivin’s work encourages us to question the assumption that natural philosophy should be assumed to be temporally primary by default.

Turning to my own work, one point that I try to bring out inMaterial Virtue is that the virtues are structured in a particular way: the four virtues of the Mengzi may culminate in a fifth term, sheng or sagehood. Structurally, these wu xing differ from the cyclical model of the wu xing in historical schemata, which was also coupled with the concept of normative equilibrium in medical traditions. In other words, though all of these feature the number five, it does not mean that they are all variations on a single theme. More concretely, these different fivefold structures may have developed along separate pathways before being synthesized around the Qin-Han unification.

龔鵬程教授：您的新作《孔子：新傳統(tǒng)》，利用海昏侯墓里的資料來討論孔子形象，十分新穎，令人佩服，比中國內(nèi)地學者速度還要快呀！可是您具體指哪些方面是新的傳統(tǒng)呢？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：這本書是在劍橋大學杰出的古典學教授保羅·卡特利奇邀請我為一個名為"古代生活 "的系列撰寫一卷時產(chǎn)生的。我非常高興能被納入其中，因為這種系列往往有偏見，而且僅限于古代歐洲。由于楊軍（音譯）和王春寧（音譯）的大方無私，我有機會在疫情前看到海昏侯墓和它的一些內(nèi)容，作為一個思想史學家，我開始為有機會看這樣一套完全有背景的材料而著迷。

"新傳統(tǒng)"這一短語意在有兩種不同的內(nèi)涵。第一個是指在劉賀墓中圍繞孔子和他的一些弟子的傳統(tǒng)的新發(fā)現(xiàn)，而劉賀曾在很短的時間內(nèi)當過漢朝的皇帝。

對歷史學家來說，這是一個關于圣人的"新 "記載，也是最早的傳記手稿，大約可以追溯到司馬遷的《孔子世家》（與之有許多共同的特點）。

同時，我認為，我們與孔子相關的傳統(tǒng)是不斷被改造的，早期帝國對孔子生活的看法是以文化為媒介從西漢宮廷的各種材料中選出的"新 "內(nèi)容。

事實上，后來的每個時代都以不同的方式對孔子的形象進行了更改。

The book came about whenPaul Cartledge, the distinguished professor of Classics at the University of Cambridge, invited me to contribute a volume to a series called “Ancient Lives.” I was very happy to be included, because often such series are biased and restricted to Ancient Europe. Thanks to the generosity of Yang Jun and Wang Chuning, I had the opportunity to see the Haihunhou tomb and some of its content prior to the pandemic, and, as an intellectual historian, I became fascinated by the opportunity to look at such a completely contextualized set of materials.

The phrase “new tradition” is intended to have two different connotations. The first refers to the new discovery of traditions surrounding Confucius and a number of his disciples at the tomb of Liu He, who was for a very brief period emperor of the Han. For historians, this is a “new” account of the Sage, and also the earliest manuscript biography, dating to around the time of Sima Qian’s biography of Confucius (with which it shares many features.) At the same time, I argue that the traditions we associate with Confucius are continually remade, and that the early imperial vision of his life was a “new” culturally-mediated selection from a variety of materials that were available to the Western Han court. In fact, each subsequent era has revised the images of Confucius in different ways.

龔鵬程教授：在戰(zhàn)國時期，孔子主要的形象，一是博學君子、二是詩禮傳承者、三是五百年才能有的圣人。漢代，孔子作為集古代文化之大成者，和“為漢代新王創(chuàng)制立法”者，卻有了分歧。今古文家就意見不同。您從“新傳統(tǒng)”這個角度談孔子，和這個古老的爭論有關嗎？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：是的，這正是我想說的一點。在漢朝，我們已經(jīng)有了多種版本的孔子。像《禮記》這樣的禮儀匯編的整理，將他描繪成周代禮儀和傳統(tǒng)的專家，并傳遞了孔子的一個形象。

公羊傳統(tǒng)的《春秋》以及讖緯文本將孔子與政治合法性的主張緊密聯(lián)系在一起，有些甚至將他描繪成一個先知。

這些形象并非毫無關聯(lián)，而是不同的社會群體利用他們所掌握的多種資料，創(chuàng)造出符合其目的的肖像。

在西漢宮廷，我們看到《論語》在培養(yǎng)太子的背景下獲得了關注。

此外，根據(jù)《?；韬顐鳌泛屯醭涞闹鳎覀冎揽鬃雍退牡茏颖蛔鳛闈h朝統(tǒng)治者及其大臣的榜樣。

具體來說，墓中的材料表明，孔子評估其弟子品行的能力是使他成為皇帝的榜樣的一個關鍵品質(zhì)。正如司馬遷所敘述的那樣，這位圣人說"政在選臣"（為政最重要的是選擇好大臣）。

Yes, this is exactly the point that I am trying to make. During the Han, we already have multiple versions of Confucius. The collation of ritual compendia like the classicLi ji portray him as an expert in the rites and conventions of the Zhou period, and transmit one image of Confucius. The Gongyang tradition of the classic Spring and Autumn, as well as the chen wei (“apocryphal”) texts, tie Confucius very closely to claims of political legitimacy, and some even portray him as a prophet. These images are not unrelated, but different social groups adapted the multiple sources at their disposal to create portraits that served their purposes.

At the Western Han court, we see theAnalects gaining attention in the context of the training of the crown prince. Further, in light of the Haihun hou biographies and the writings of Wang Chong, we know that Confucius and his disciples were taken as examples for the Han ruler and his ministers. Specifically, the tomb materials suggest that Confucius’ ability to assess his disciples’ character was a key quality that made him a model for the emperor. As Sima Qian recounts, the sage said that: “good government lies in the selection of ministers”.

龔鵬程教授：中國早期民族很紛紜，夷夏羌苗，后來才融合成了“漢”?？墒沁@個融合，事實上也是一個拋棄的過程。例如漢初劉項集團楚人獨多，誦楚辭作楚歌便成一時之時髦?？墒浅Z楚辭后來也未擺脫方言之地位。同樣，楚辭中東皇太一、司命、云中君、東君、湘君ˇ等神祇也沒成為普遍的信仰。所以當時到底是一個什么樣的融合、重新塑造過程，確實令人好奇。事實上，這也是大家對您《漢族思想讀本》異常感興趣的地方，您可以稍作闡述嗎？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：每當有細心的讀者發(fā)現(xiàn)該書的這一微妙之處，我都很感激。

在問題中，您提到了我關于漢族統(tǒng)一不同信仰的論點。您還提出了一個問題：為什么楚國文化的某些方面能夠持續(xù)存在并成為漢族"大熔爐 "的一部分，而另一些方面卻似乎消失了？

關于楚國的問題，我聽從張正明、大衛(wèi)·霍克斯和戈帕爾·蘇庫等楚國文化學者的意見，因為楚國的地域文化不是我的重點。霍克斯認為《楚辭》中的 《九歌 》是公元前三世紀的楚國宮廷歌曲。我同意這些戰(zhàn)國晚期楚歌中的神殿不是漢族文化的核心，但另一方面，來自成都平原的人物在西漢文學和文化中發(fā)揮著重要作用。

問題是，這兩種現(xiàn)象中哪一種更能代表楚文化？

退一步說，從全局來看，漢文化的融合方面，也不僅僅是包括地方文化的各個方面。強調(diào)"道 "是無數(shù)技術(shù)的總和，是一種認識論策略，將不同的、可能是矛盾的觀點同化為統(tǒng)一的、整體的觀點。在這個意義上，融合本身成為一種概念工具，對漢代以后的中國哲學產(chǎn)生了影響。

I am grateful whenever a careful reader picks up on this subtle aspect of the book. In the question, you refer to my argument about the Han unification of different beliefs. You also pose a question: why do some aspects of Chu culture endure and become part of the Han “melting pot,” and others seem to disappear? On the question of Chu, I defer to scholars of Chu culture like Zhang Zhengming, David Hawkes and Gopal Sukhu, since Chu regional culture is not a focus of mine. Hawkes identifies the “Nine Songs” from theChu ci as Chu court songs from third century BCE. I agree that the pantheon in these late Warring States Chu songs is not central to Han culture, but on the other hand, figures from the Chengdu plain play a major role in Western Han literature and culture. The question becomes, which of these two phenomena better represents Chu culture?

Taking a step back to look at the entire picture, the synthetic aspect of Han culture is also more than just a matter of including aspects of local cultures. The emphasis on the Dao as the sum of myriad techniques is an epistemological strategy for assimilating different and potentially contradictory perspectives into a unified, holistic viewpoint. In that sense, synthesis itself becomes a conceptual tool that has an impact on Chinese philosophy from Han times forward.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現(xiàn)為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。