龔鵬程對話海外學(xué)者第一百零七期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應(yīng)實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請他對話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

魯本·加洛教授（Professor Rubén Gallo）

美國普林斯頓大學(xué)西班牙語、西班牙文學(xué)和西班牙文明教授

龔鵬程教授：您好。在《墨西哥藝術(shù)的新趨勢：90年代》中，您提到90年代的墨西哥藝術(shù)家對所有亞洲的事物都很著迷。墨西哥東方主義的起源是什么？我們應(yīng)該如何解讀它？墨西哥藝術(shù)和中國之間有什么有趣的聯(lián)系嗎?

魯本·加洛教授：龔教授，您好。20世紀(jì)90年代，新一代的年輕藝術(shù)家崛起，他們試圖打破墨西哥繪畫的傳統(tǒng)，以及墨西哥革命后繪畫媒介所承載的強(qiáng)烈的民族主義色彩。這些藝術(shù)家拒絕繪畫，而傾向于視頻、裝置、攝影和概念藝術(shù)。

他們還試圖與20世紀(jì)80年代主導(dǎo)墨西哥繪畫的強(qiáng)烈的民族主義意象劃清界限，當(dāng)時一場被稱為新墨西哥主義的運(yùn)動將大量鮮艷的色彩、民俗元素和歷史主題置于風(fēng)口浪尖。有趣的是，亞洲為民族主義主題提供了另一種選擇：許多在20世紀(jì)90年代開始展出作品的藝術(shù)家轉(zhuǎn)向中國、日本、印度和其他國家的文化作為靈感來源。

1968年出生的瓜達(dá)拉哈拉藝術(shù)家羅德里戈·阿爾達(dá)納（Rodrigo Aldana）對中國藝術(shù)史和哲學(xué)史特別感興趣。在20世紀(jì)90年代中期的一系列未命名的繪畫作品中，阿爾達(dá)納引用了石濤的格言：“我的頭發(fā)都白了，我仍然是個文盲”，并在他的繪畫作品上用一種帶有中文表意符號的蠟印簽名。

在一個天主教占絕對多數(shù)的國家，像阿爾達(dá)納（Aldana）這樣的藝術(shù)家開始對中國佛教感興趣，認(rèn)為它是一種哲學(xué)和宗教思想體系，為思考世界和墨西哥開辟了新的途徑。

其他參與這種東方主義沖動的藝術(shù)家還有：巴勃羅·巴爾加斯·盧戈（Pablo Vargas Lugo）、愛德華多·阿巴羅阿（Eduardo Abaroa）、達(dá)妮埃拉·羅塞爾（Daniela Rossell）、伊沙伊·朱希曼（Yishai Jusidman）。在他們的所有作品中，中國、日本和印度的文化取代了在前幾代墨西哥藝術(shù)中流行的墨西哥意象。

在文學(xué)方面，20世紀(jì)最重要的詩人奧克塔維奧·帕斯（Octavio Paz）癡迷于中國古典詩歌，甚至嘗試翻譯一些詩句。評論家兼翻譯家艾略特·溫伯格（Eliot Weinberger）在他的《十九種觀看方式》和《王維:一首中國詩歌是如何翻譯的》（1995）中收錄了帕斯的翻譯作品。

The 1990s saw the rise of a new generation of young artists who sougth to break with the tradition of Mexican painting and the strong nationalist overtones the medium had carried since the years following the Mexican Revolution. These artists rejected painting in favor of video, installation, photography, and conceptual art.

They also sought to distance themselves from the strong nationalist imagery that came to dominate Mexican painting in the 1980s, when a movement known as neo-Mexicanism brought to the forefront a profusion of bright colors, folkloric elements, and historical themes. Interestingly, Asia provided an alternative to nationalistic themes: many artists who began exhibiting their work in the 1990s turned to the cultures of China, Japan, India, and other countries as a source of inspiration.

Rodrigo Aldana, an artist from Guadalajara born in 1968, became especially interested in the history of Chinese art and philosophy. In a series of untitled drawings from the mid 1990s, Aldana quotes the Shi T’ao’s dictum: “my hair is white and I am still illiterate” and signed his paintings using a wax seal featuring an ideogram in Chinese.

In a country that was overwhelmingly Catholic, artists like Aldana became interested in Chinese Buddhism as a philosophical and religious system of thought that opened up new ways for thinking about the world — and about Mexico.

Other artists who were part of this Orientalist impulse were: Pablo Vargas Lugo, Eduardo Abaroa, Daniela Rossell, Yishai Jusidman. In all their work, the cultures of China, Japan and India replace the Mexican imagery that had been popular among previous generations of Mexican art.

In literature, Octavio Paz, the most important poet in the 20th century, was fascinated with classical Chinese poetry, and even attempted his hand at translating some verses. Critic and translator Eliot Weinberger included Paz’s translations — among many others — in his Nineteen Ways of Looking and Wang Wei: How a Chinese Poem Is Translated (1995).

龔鵬程教授：您是研究弗洛依德的大專家，在普林斯頓教授相關(guān)課程。我不久前去拜訪倫敦的弗洛依德之家，知道您曾在那兒講授弗洛依德，現(xiàn)在又能與您一起談弗洛依德，感覺還頗親切。在您的《弗洛依德的墨西哥》一書中，您調(diào)查了弗洛依德的思想在墨西哥的接受情況，以及弗洛依德對墨西哥的興趣。 為什么詩人和作家們對弗洛依德的精神分析理論感興趣？

魯本·加洛教授：在弗洛依德于1900年出版《夢的解析》后不久，世界各地的藝術(shù)家和詩人開始對他的作品以及精神分析理論能夠激發(fā)藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作的新方式感興趣。弗洛依德的早期讀者之一是安德烈-布勒東（André Breton），他在1924年寫下了 "超現(xiàn)實主義宣言"，試圖將弗洛依德關(guān)于夢的發(fā)現(xiàn)應(yīng)用到文學(xué)和藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作的實踐中：與試圖描繪清醒現(xiàn)實的藝術(shù)和文學(xué)相反，超現(xiàn)實主義藝術(shù)將致力于夢的世界，它占據(jù)了人類生活的重要部分，但卻不被重視。

在墨西哥，在1910年革命后的幾年里，許多年輕的藝術(shù)家和詩人對弗洛依德的工作產(chǎn)生了興趣。對他們來說，精神分析提供了一種現(xiàn)代化的方式去思考世界。例如，詩人薩爾瓦多-諾沃（Salvador Novo）對弗洛依德關(guān)于性的文章很感興趣，著迷于為描寫人類的情感和欲望提供的新語言。他對弗洛依德作品的閱讀啟發(fā)他寫下了《鹽的雕像》（La estatua de sal），這是一本直言不諱的自傳，也是一種自我分析的形式，直到20世紀(jì)90年代才出版。

現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)成為墨西哥最著名女藝術(shù)家的弗里達(dá)-卡洛（Frida Kahlo）也求助于弗洛依德。她的一個收藏家給了她一本《摩西和一神論》，要求她畫下來，這是弗洛依德的最后一本書。這個作品就是《摩西》，一幅1945年的畫作，對弗洛依德關(guān)于猶太教和宗教的想法進(jìn)行了視覺化的詮釋。

精神分析——當(dāng)時和現(xiàn)在一樣——為這些有創(chuàng)造力的人提供了一種思考世界的新方式，這種方式在理智上是嚴(yán)謹(jǐn)?shù)?，在情感上是豐富的。今天，許多藝術(shù)家——索菲·卡萊（Sophie Calle）是一個浮現(xiàn)在腦海中的名字——她還在繼續(xù)使用弗洛依德的作品作為創(chuàng)作的靈感。

Soon after Freud publishedThe Interpretation of Dreams in 1900, artists and poets around the world became interested in his work and in the ways in which psychoanalytic theory could inspire new ways of making art. One of Freud’s early readers was André Breton, who wrote his 1924 “Manifesto of Surrealism” as an attempt to apply Freud’s findings about dreams to the practice of literary and artistic production: in contrast to art and literature that sought to paint waking reality, Surrealist art would be devoted to the world of dreams, which occupy a significant portion of human life, but which had been disdained as unimportant.

In Mexico, in the years after the Revolution of 1910, many young artists and poets became interested in Freud’s work. For them, psychoanalysis offered a modern way to think about the world. The poet Salvador Novo, for instance, became fascinated with Freud’s essays on sexuality and the new language they offered to write about human affects and desires. His reading of Freud’s work inspired him to writeLa estatua de sal [The statue of salt] a frank autobiography which was also a form of self-analysis, and which remained unpublished until the 1990s.

Frida Kahlo, who has now become Mexico’s most famous woman artist, also turned to Freud. One of her collectors gave her a copy ofMoses and Monotheism, Freud’s last book, and asked to paint it. The result was Moses, a painting from 1945 which provides a visual interpretation of Freud’s ideas about Judaism and religion.

Psychoanalysis — then, as now — offered these creative individuals a new way of thinking about the world that was intellectually rigorous and emotionally informed. Today, many artists —Sophie Calle is a name that comes to mind — continue to use Freud’s work as an inspiration for creative work.

龔鵬程教授：在《墨西哥異端》（Heterodoxos Mexicanos）中，您介紹了二十世紀(jì)墨西哥文學(xué)中“最古怪”的十位作家。您認(rèn)為中國讀者最應(yīng)該了解哪位“古怪”的作家，為什么？

魯本·加洛教授：古怪的作家和異端的作家是有區(qū)別的。從詞源學(xué)上講，古怪（weird）的意思是“偏離中心”，而異端（heterodox）指的是拒絕主流 “教條”或主流范式的人物。在19世紀(jì)，西班牙評論家馬塞利諾佩拉約（ Marcelino Menéndez Pelayo）出版了《西班牙異端人物的歷史》——那些不符合西班牙民族主義天主教傳統(tǒng)或教義的知識分子和作家。

我開始對墨西哥的異端作家的想法感興趣，我把那些不適合墨西哥文學(xué)傳統(tǒng)的文本編成文集，特別是在二十世紀(jì)，墨西哥文學(xué)經(jīng)常涉及民族身份問題。

在我為這本選集挑選的十位異端作家中，我覺得最接近的是薩爾瓦多·諾沃（Salvador Novo）。1910年革命爆發(fā)時，諾沃還是個孩子，在將近十年的內(nèi)戰(zhàn)中，他生活在恐懼之中。這段經(jīng)歷給了他一個獨(dú)特的觀點(diǎn):在20世紀(jì)20年代，當(dāng)大多數(shù)作家和藝術(shù)家——迭戈-里維拉（Diego Rivera）、弗里達(dá)-卡洛（Frida Kahlo）、馬丁-路易斯-古斯曼（Martín Luis Guzmán）——慶祝墨西哥革命時，諾沃（Novo）抵制了將這一事件浪漫化的傾向，并對其進(jìn)行了批判性的寫作。年輕時，他學(xué)習(xí)法語、英語和德語，這樣他就能讀到弗洛依德、艾略特和普魯斯特的原著。他有一種追求現(xiàn)代化的意志，他與來自世界各地的國際化作家都有一種親切感。

每個人都應(yīng)該知道諾沃（Novo），因為他的幽默感：聰明和不恭。他的一首詩《迪亞加達(dá)》（La Diegada）是諷刺史詩，諷刺了迭戈·里維拉（Diego Rivera），他被塑造成一頭大公牛，具有破壞性，笨拙不堪。時至今日，在它寫完近80年后，這首詩仍然讓讀者開懷大笑。

There is a difference between eccentric and heterodox writers. Etymologically, eccentric means “off the center,” while heterodox refers to a figure who rejects the dominant “doxa” or dominant paradigm. In the 19th century, the Spanish critic Marcelino Menéndez Pelayo published a History of Spanish Heterodox Figures – intellectuals and writers who did not conform to the tradition — or doxa — of Spanish nationalist Catholicism.

I became interested in the idea of a heterodox writer in Mexico, and I put together an anthology of texts that did not fit comfortably within the tradition of Mexican literature, which, especially in the twentieth century, often dealt with questions of national identity.

Of the ten heterodox writers I selected for the anthology, the one I feel closest to is Salvador Novo. Novo was still a child when the Revolution broke out in 1910, and he lived in terror during the almost ten years of civil war. This experience gave him a distinct outlook: in the 1920s, when most writers and artists — Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo, Martín Luis Guzmán — celebrated the Mexican Revolution, Novo resisted the tendency to romanticize this event and wrote critically about it. As a young man, he learned French, English and German so he could read Freud, T.S. Eliot, and Marcel Proust in the original languages. He had a will to be modern, and he felt a kinship with cosmopolitan writers from around the world.

Everyone should know Novo because of his sense of humor: brilliant and irreverent. One of his poems, “La Diegada” is a mock-epic caricaturing Diego Rivera, who is figured as a large bull, destructive and unwieldy. Today, almost eighty years after it was written, this poem continues to make readers laugh.

龔鵬程教授：安德烈-布勒東（André Breton）有句名言：墨西哥城是地球上最超現(xiàn)實的地方。您可以為此談?wù)勀南敕▎幔?/p>

魯本·加洛教授：甚至在安德烈-布勒東（André Breto）1938年到達(dá)墨西哥之前，他的腦海中就充滿了對這個國家的幻想：他想象著阿茲特克人的土地，以及他們的金字塔和人祭；他被墨西哥革命所吸引，他把它理解為1917年布爾什維克革命的早期版本；他設(shè)想了一個政治解放的土地，神奇的印第安文化…...一個替代歐洲世界的地方，這個世界已經(jīng)被第一次世界大戰(zhàn)帶來的四年大規(guī)模破壞以及技術(shù)現(xiàn)代性造成的非人化破壞了。

在布勒東（Breton）的心目中，墨西哥不受歐洲的所有弊病的影響。他的解讀相當(dāng)幼稚—墨西哥最近經(jīng)歷了自己的內(nèi)部戰(zhàn)爭：墨西哥革命造成了大約100萬人死亡—但這符合一個更大的傳統(tǒng)，即藝術(shù)家、作家和知識分子在20世紀(jì)20年代和30年代被吸引到墨西哥：他們每個人都像布勒東（Breton）一樣，帶著幻想來到墨西哥。

這個名單很長：勞倫斯（D.H. Lawrence）、馬雅可夫斯基（Mayakovski）、托洛茨基（Trotsky）、愛德華·韋斯頓（Edward Weston）、蒂娜·莫多蒂（Tina Modotti）、安東寧·阿圖德（Antonin Artaud）、約翰·多斯·帕索斯（John Dos Passos）只是我腦海中浮現(xiàn)的一些名字。他們每個人都把一套幻想投射到墨西哥，而他們每一個人，在到達(dá)墨西哥后，面對的是一個完全不同的現(xiàn)實。有些人——比如韋斯頓（ Weston）——對此感到失望；還有一些人——比如莫多蒂（ Modotti）——放棄了他們的幻想，適應(yīng)了新的現(xiàn)實。

布勒東沒有在墨西哥停留很長時間：如果他在那里生活了很長時間，如果他學(xué)會了西班牙語，如果他了解了他所處的環(huán)境，我們不禁要問，他是否會以幻滅而告終。

其他人的反應(yīng)甚至更有趣。阿圖德發(fā)現(xiàn)墨西哥是一個瘋狂的國家，在那里他可以感覺到正常。在法國，他被送進(jìn)精神病院并被電擊；而在墨西哥，他可以自由自在地游蕩，想象自己與塔拉烏馬拉人志趣相投。

在這個意義上，墨西哥與中國非常相似：幾個世紀(jì)以來，這兩個國家一直吸引著充滿幻想和期待的旅行者。

Even before André Breton arrived in Mexico in 1938, his mind was full of fantasies about this country: he imagined the land of the Aztecs, with their pyramids and human sacrifices; he was drawn to the Mexican Revolution, which he understood as an earlier version of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution; he envisioned a land of political liberation, magical Indian cultures… an alternative to the European world, which had been devastated by the four years of massive destruction brought on by World War I, and by the dehumanization caused by technological modernity.

Mexico, in Breton’s mind, was immune from all the ills that plagued Europe. His reading was rather na?ve —Mexico had recently experienced its own episode of war: the Mexican Revolution left about one million dead —, but it fits into a larger tradition of artists, writers, and intellectuals who were drawn to Mexico in the 1920s and 1930s: each of them came, like Breton, with a fantasy.

The list is long: D.H. Lawrence, Mayakovski, Trotsky, Edward Weston, Tina Modotti, Antonin Artaud, John Dos Passos are just some of the names that come to mind. Each of them projected a set of fantasies on to Mexico, and each of them was confronted, upon arrival, with a reality that was radically different. Some — like Weston — reacted with disappointment; others— like Modotti — abandoned their illusions and adapted to a newfound reality.

Breton did not stay long in Mexico: had he lived there for an extended period, had he learned Spanish, had he understood the context in which he had arrived, one wonders if he would have ended up disillusioned.

Others had an even more interesting reaction: Artaud found in Mexico a mad country, one where he could feel normal. In France he was sent to an asylum and given electroshocks; in Mexico, he could roam free and imagine himself as a kindred spirit to the Tarahumara.

In this sense, Mexico is very similar to China: two countries that have, for centuries, attracted travelers who arrive full of fantasies and expectations.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展?，F(xiàn)為中國孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長、臺灣國立東華大學(xué)終身榮譽(yù)教授、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。