龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第九十六期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

威廉·懷特教授（Professor William Whyte）

英國(guó)皇家歷史學(xué)會(huì)院士，牛津大學(xué)歷史學(xué)會(huì)主席。

龔鵬程教授：您好。您對(duì)教堂、大學(xué)等神圣空間的研究成果斐然。然而現(xiàn)代這些傳統(tǒng)的神圣空間都面臨失落或衰亡的情境，請(qǐng)問其原因是什么？是宗教、教育本身就在衰落中，還是整個(gè)社會(huì)的世俗化使然？

威廉·懷特教授：龔教授，您好。大學(xué)和教堂在其建筑方法上驚人地相似。兩者都是專注于無(wú)形的機(jī)構(gòu)——無(wú)論是信仰還是思想，或是介于兩者之間的東西。然而，兩者都需要家園，而且多年來(lái)，這些家園在象征上和情感上以及在實(shí)踐上都變得很重要。

對(duì)許多教堂來(lái)說(shuō)，建筑表達(dá)了關(guān)于神學(xué)的真理。對(duì)許多大學(xué)來(lái)說(shuō)，建筑是闡明身份的一種手段。

然而，可以說(shuō)，目前教會(huì)和大學(xué)的經(jīng)驗(yàn)是相當(dāng)不同的。雖然大學(xué)從未建造過更大的建筑，也很少建造更多的建筑，但許多教會(huì)建筑正在被關(guān)閉、拆除或用于其他用途。在某種程度上，這確實(shí)反映了出席人數(shù)的減少。然而，在很大程度上，這也是由于禮拜場(chǎng)所總是太多導(dǎo)致的。

教堂的建造往往是為了刺激需求，而不是因?yàn)閷?duì)它們有需求。它們往往是教派競(jìng)爭(zhēng)的產(chǎn)物，而不是為廣大社區(qū)的真正需要服務(wù)。簡(jiǎn)而言之，建筑的象征意義產(chǎn)生了大量大型、昂貴的建筑，而教會(huì)總是在努力維護(hù)這些建筑。具有諷刺意味的是，在今天，它們現(xiàn)在象征著宗教所面臨的挑戰(zhàn)。

Universities and churches are surprisingly similar in their approach to architecture. Both are institutions that focus on the intangible – whether that’s faith or thought or something in between. Yet both need homes and, over the years, those homes have become symbolically and emotionally as well as practically important. For many churches, the building expresses truths about theology. For many universities, architecture is a means of articulating identity.

It is, however, true to say that the current experience of churches and universities is rather different. While universities have never built bigger and rarely built more, many church buildings are being closed, demolished, or used for other purposes. In part, this does indeed reflect declining attendance. To a large extent, however, it is also because there were always too many places of worship.

Churches were often built to stimulate demand rather than because there was a demand for them. They were frequently the product of denominational competition instead of serving the real needs of the wider community. The symbolic importance of buildings, in short, produced a huge number of large, expensive structures that the churches always struggled to maintain. Ironically, in the present day, they now symbolise the challenges that religion faces.

龔鵬程教授：面對(duì)傳統(tǒng)建筑、神圣空間的衰落，現(xiàn)在的策略應(yīng)該是什么？努力保存、呼吁恢復(fù)、新瓶舊酒、移形取神、或轉(zhuǎn)型改造以適應(yīng)新社會(huì)？

威廉·懷特教授：從某些方面來(lái)說(shuō)，傳統(tǒng)建筑從來(lái)沒有過這么好的時(shí)候。環(huán)境危機(jī)為保護(hù)建筑提供了新的推動(dòng)力。對(duì)現(xiàn)代主義規(guī)劃者的宏偉主張的懷疑，鼓勵(lì)了許多地方對(duì)小規(guī)模、鄉(xiāng)土和家庭生活的回歸。這也伴隨著對(duì)古老傳統(tǒng)的興趣的恢復(fù)——無(wú)論是西方傳統(tǒng)的古典主義，還是最近在中國(guó)進(jìn)行的斗拱建筑實(shí)驗(yàn)。

但是，建筑總是為某一時(shí)刻而建造的——隨著時(shí)間的推移，不可避免地出現(xiàn)了關(guān)于建筑是否仍然適合使用的問題。有些建筑應(yīng)該被保存，因?yàn)樗鼈冋f(shuō)明了一些重要的東西：一種開創(chuàng)性的技術(shù)，一種特別出色的美學(xué)，一個(gè)特別重要的設(shè)計(jì)師，一個(gè)特定歷史主題的生動(dòng)例子。其他值得保存的建筑則是因?yàn)樗鼈儗?duì)鄰里關(guān)系有貢獻(xiàn)或有深刻的情感影響。

最大的問題是如何最好地確保它們被保存下來(lái)，而在某些情況下，這將意味著轉(zhuǎn)型的使用。有一些教堂建筑被用作餐館、商店、電影院和酒吧。有幾座教堂甚至成了攀巖中心，配有墻和安全帶供愛好者使用。

這種改造可能是敏感的，也可能不是——在某些情況下，我們不難感覺到這種變化是如此巨大，如此不敏感，以至于拆除會(huì)更親切。

然而，如果關(guān)鍵是為了保護(hù)建筑本身，那么改造是不可避免的。事實(shí)上，它是任何建筑生存的根本。

In some respects, traditional architecture has never had it so good. Environmental crisis has given a renewed impetus to preservation. A suspicion of the grand claims of modernist planners has encouraged a return to the small-scale, vernacular, and homespun in many places. This has been accompanied by a revival of interest in older traditions – be they the classicism of the western tradition or recent experiments with dougong in China.

But buildings are always built for a moment in time – and, as time moves on, so questions inevitably arise about whether a building is still fit for purpose. Some should be saved because they illustrate something important: a pioneering technique, a particularly excellent aesthetic, an especially important designer, a telling example of a particular historical theme. Others are worth preservation because they contribute to the neighbourhood or have a profound emotional effect.

The big question is how best to ensure that they are preserved, and in some cases that will mean a transformative use. There are church buildings employed as restaurants, shops, cinemas, bars. A couple have even become climbing centres, complete with walls and harnesses for enthusiasts to use. This adaptation can be more or less sensitive – and in some cases it’s not hard to feel that the change is so enormous and so insensitive that demolition would have been kinder. Yet if the key thing is the preservation of the building for its own sake, then adaption is inevitable. Indeed, it’s fundamental to the survival of any building.

龔鵬程教授：現(xiàn)代都市中，有許多學(xué)校甚至教會(huì)都只在一棟商圈樓層中，跟公司無(wú)異，這類建筑如何保留或創(chuàng)造神圣性？

威廉·懷特教授：神圣的空間不是抽象存在的東西?？梢钥隙ǖ氖?，我們都會(huì)經(jīng)歷過感覺特別的環(huán)境——無(wú)論是否是人造的。高大的山峰、深邃的洞穴、安靜而莊嚴(yán)的建筑：這些都能喚起人們的情感，并可能引發(fā)一種感覺，即我們以某種方式遇到了某種神圣的東西。

然而，人們更有能力在不那么有希望的地方找到神圣的東西。焦慮的父母在病房里祈禱；憂心忡忡的學(xué)生在考場(chǎng)上尋找神的幫助；生活在街頭的絕望者：所有這些都沒有更明顯的令人愉悅的提示。事實(shí)上，有些信仰傳統(tǒng)積極阻止精心設(shè)計(jì)的藝術(shù)和建筑，擔(dān)心它們會(huì)分散人們崇拜的真正目的——尋找上帝。對(duì)他們來(lái)說(shuō)，樸素和沒有審美效果實(shí)際上是適當(dāng)?shù)淖诮獭?/p>

這表明，我們對(duì)神圣空間的概念不是普遍的，而是非常具體和文化上的決定。這就是為什么研究這些態(tài)度改變的時(shí)刻非常有趣，而且具有啟示意義。我的大部分工作是試圖了解人們?nèi)绾文軌蛞匀绱瞬煌姆绞絹?lái)理解物質(zhì)世界和宗教。答案告訴我們很多他們的信息和他們身處的文化。

Sacred space is not something that exists in the abstract. To be sure, we will all have experienced environments – whether man-made or not – that feel special. Tall mountains, deep caves, quiet and stately buildings: these all evoke emotion and may provoke a feeling that we have somehow encountered something numinous.

People are, nonetheless, more than capable of finding the sacred in still less promising locations. The anxious parent praying in a hospital room; the worried student searching for divine help in the exam hall; the desperate man living on the streets: all these do without more apparently pleasing prompts. Indeed, there are faith traditions that positively discourage elaborate art and architecture, fearing that they would distract people from the real purpose of worship, searching for God. For them, plainness and an absence of aesthetic effect are in fact properly religious.

What this suggests is that our notions of sacred space are not universal but very specific and culturally determined. That’s what makes studying those moment in which such attitudes change so very interesting – and revealing. Much of my work is taken up with trying to understand how it is that people can come to understand the material world and religion so differently. The answer tells us much about them and about the culture in which they live.

龔鵬程教授：1905年以前，中國(guó)的書院和教堂是合一的，其后也跟您談到的“維多利亞時(shí)代神圣空間失落”情況差不多，甚至更慘，不知您關(guān)注到了嗎，可相比較嗎？

威廉·懷特教授：現(xiàn)代的許多爭(zhēng)論都取決于如何理解現(xiàn)代性。成為"歷史正確的一方 "的愿望推動(dòng)了許多變革。

未來(lái)將與過去截然不同，但我們又能以某種方式預(yù)測(cè)它的形式，這種假設(shè)支撐著許多決定。盡管我們現(xiàn)在質(zhì)疑所謂的"現(xiàn)代化理論"，但它的影響是不可否認(rèn)的——而且在許多地方，直到今天仍然非常強(qiáng)大。

在很大程度上，正是現(xiàn)代性將是世俗化的假設(shè)導(dǎo)致了中國(guó)學(xué)術(shù)界的世俗化。人們認(rèn)為，如果中國(guó)要實(shí)現(xiàn)現(xiàn)代化，那么它的教育就必須摒棄宗教。類似的沖動(dòng)也影響了西方的教育。但矛盾的是，這種信念也鼓勵(lì)了新教堂的建設(shè)。

對(duì)現(xiàn)代世界會(huì)腐蝕信仰的恐懼，促使許多維多利亞人重新構(gòu)想他們的禮拜場(chǎng)所。他們想建造能夠抵御世俗化浪潮的教堂：讓人感到與現(xiàn)代世界分離和不同的圣潔之地。

然而，人們并不總是做人們所期望的事；事實(shí)上，人們很少這樣做。正如許多人沒有被這些美麗的建筑所吸引一樣，其他人也拒絕世俗化。寫作歷史的最大樂趣，也是最大的挑戰(zhàn)是抓住這些矛盾，準(zhǔn)確地傳達(dá)過去的真實(shí)復(fù)雜性。

Many debates in the modern age hinge on how modernity is understood. The desire to be ‘on the right side of history’ drives much change. The assumption that the future will look very different from the past and yet that we can somehow predict its form underwrites a lot of decisions. Although we now question what became known as ‘modernisation theory’, its impact is undeniable – and remains, in many places, remarkably strong to this day.

It was, in large part, the assumption that modernity would be secular that led to the secularization of China’s academies. If China was to modernize, it was thought, then its education needed to eschew religion. Similar impulses affected education in the west. Paradoxically, though, this belief also encouraged the construction of new churches too.

The fear that the modern world was corrosive of faith prompted many Victorians to reimagine their places of worship. They wanted to build churches that would stand against the assumed tide of secularization: holy places that would feel separate and different from the modern world.

People don’t always do what’s expected, however; indeed, the rarely do. Just as many were not enticed by these beautiful buildings, so others refused to secularize. The great fun – and greatest challenge – of writing history is capturing these paradoxes and accurately conveying the true complexity of the past.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現(xiàn)為中國(guó)孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。