龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第八十七期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

瑞秋·散澤-芮薇拉（Rachell Sánchez-Rivera）

波多黎各學(xué)者，曾獲得美國哥倫比亞大學(xué)拉丁美洲和加勒比地區(qū)研究碩士，劍橋大學(xué)皇后學(xué)院拉丁美洲研究中心博士，劍橋大學(xué)社會(huì)學(xué)系博士后。

現(xiàn)任劍橋大學(xué)（University of Cambridge）岡維爾和凱斯學(xué)院（Gonville & Caius College）種族和反種族主義研究中心研究員，劍橋大學(xué)社會(huì)學(xué)系生殖社會(huì)學(xué)研究小組 、經(jīng)濟(jì)和社會(huì)研究理事會(huì)理事。

劍橋大學(xué)社會(huì)學(xué)系教學(xué)獎(jiǎng)、導(dǎo)師獎(jiǎng)獲得者。

龔鵬程：您好。您的經(jīng)歷，幾乎可算是個(gè)旅行家，游走于拉丁美洲、美洲、歐洲之間。除了知識(shí)追求、課業(yè)學(xué)習(xí)之外，我覺得您還善用了兩個(gè)網(wǎng)絡(luò)，一是社會(huì)上的旅行補(bǔ)助制度，二是世界性的學(xué)術(shù)網(wǎng)絡(luò)。

例如您曾獲得的健康與疾病社會(huì)學(xué)基金會(huì)之會(huì)議旅行補(bǔ)助金、劍橋大學(xué)皇后學(xué)院旅行補(bǔ)助金、哥倫比亞大學(xué)的論文實(shí)地考察波多黎各之旅行補(bǔ)助金等，屬于第一類。

第二類其實(shí)是學(xué)術(shù)社群這種“非國家行動(dòng)者”本身的動(dòng)能，例如，您經(jīng)常參加的學(xué)�？鐕献黜�(xiàng)目獲國際研討會(huì)。

請(qǐng)介紹一下在這兩個(gè)網(wǎng)絡(luò)的共同作用下，您是如何逐漸形成了你的研究興趣？另外，您認(rèn)為在您的研究領(lǐng)域中有什么令人興奮的最新發(fā)展?

散澤-芮薇拉：龔教授，您好，非常感謝您邀請(qǐng)我參加這個(gè)對(duì)話項(xiàng)目。我的學(xué)術(shù)興趣主要集中在科學(xué)社會(huì)學(xué)、社會(huì)不平等、性別和生育這幾個(gè)范疇。

在我的書稿——《墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)經(jīng)歷了些什么?：種族主義和民族的繁衍》中，我探討了20世紀(jì)初墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)的起源，并追溯了其至今的延續(xù)和演變。根據(jù)采用的檔案材料和當(dāng)代積極分子的報(bào)告，我的研究揭示了優(yōu)生學(xué)家在墨西哥民族國家的建立中扮演了重要的角色。這將是第一本以英文書寫的墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)著作，這幫助我們拓寬了對(duì)優(yōu)生學(xué)的跨國關(guān)系及其當(dāng)代遺留問題的理解。

在這份書稿中，我運(yùn)用長時(shí)段（longue durée）歷史和社會(huì)學(xué)分析去了解優(yōu)生學(xué)在墨西哥是怎么產(chǎn)生的（墨西哥革命后1910 – 1920期間），并解答了關(guān)于在1950年代中期，墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)會(huì)解散后，在優(yōu)生思想和實(shí)踐上的發(fā)展。通過探討這個(gè)問題，呈現(xiàn)出優(yōu)生觀念的全球互聯(lián)性，并介紹了在特定環(huán)境下知識(shí)如何產(chǎn)生，以及這些觀念如何影響個(gè)人的日常生活。我認(rèn)為在墨西哥的優(yōu)生思想的影響下，國家機(jī)構(gòu)的建立，反而助長了將優(yōu)生學(xué)家眼中不利于改善國家發(fā)展的群體‘病態(tài)化’；而在這種隱晦的表達(dá)方式下，這些缺乏明顯種族主義色彩的觀點(diǎn)正正導(dǎo)致了優(yōu)生思想依然存世至今。因此，即使在優(yōu)生學(xué)的措辭已不再被接受的情況下，我也提供了一些方法以便識(shí)別現(xiàn)今優(yōu)生思想和實(shí)踐的延續(xù)。

我相信在我的研究領(lǐng)域中，最令人興奮的發(fā)展之一，是對(duì)優(yōu)生學(xué)遺留問題的探討，許多人似乎將優(yōu)生學(xué)視為偽科學(xué)，認(rèn)為其不再與當(dāng)代對(duì)社會(huì)或文化的理解有關(guān)；然而，優(yōu)生學(xué)思想的影響其實(shí)仍然持續(xù)著。

Hello, Professor Gong. Thank you so much for your invitation for this programme. My primary academic interests are the sociology of science, social inequalities, gender, and reproduction. My book manuscript, entitled What Happened to Mexican Eugenics?: Racism and the Reproduction of the Nation explores the origins of eugenics in Mexico at the beginning of the twentieth century and traces its continuity and evolution into the present day. Using a mixture of archival materials and contemporary activists reports, my research shows how central the role of eugenicists was to the creation of the Mexican nation-state. This project will be the first book dedicated to Mexican eugenics that is written in English, broadening our understanding of transnational connections of eugenics and its contemporary legacies.

This book manuscript uses a longue durée historical and sociological analysis in order tounderstand how eugenics came about in Mexico (after the Mexican Revolution 1910-1920) and to answer the question of what happened to eugenic ideas and practices after the dissolution of the Mexican Society of Eugenics (SME) in the mid-1950s. The answer to this question demonstrates the global interconnectedness of eugenic ideas, the production of context-specific knowledge and how these notions have an impact on the every-day life of individuals. I argue that eugenic ideas in Mexico allowed the creation of a national body that, in turn, helped to pathologize groups that, in the eugenicists’ view, were detrimental to the improvement of the national stock—ideas that continue to exist today through the usage of veiled and coded language that lack overtly racist overtones. Thus, I provide the tools to recognize the continuation of eugenic practices and ideas even after the language of eugenics falls from acceptability.

I believe that one of the most exciting developments in my research area are the legacies of eugenics. A lot of people seem to cast eugenics as a pseudoscience that no longer has relevance in contemporary understandings of society or culture, nonetheless, the impacts of eugenic ideas still persist.

龔鵬程：您的研究興趣廣泛，從健康與疾病社會(huì)學(xué)、酷兒理論、生殖社會(huì)學(xué)，到殘疾研究，很想聽聽您對(duì)優(yōu)生學(xué)的研究和敘述。

散澤-芮薇拉：我在紐約市哥倫比亞大學(xué)的碩士論文中，研究了在美國殖民地波多黎各用避孕藥進(jìn)行優(yōu)生實(shí)驗(yàn)的媒介表現(xiàn)。這使我發(fā)現(xiàn)了在美洲和歐洲不同的優(yōu)生學(xué)協(xié)會(huì)有著非常廣泛的跨國關(guān)系。也使我在Alexandra Stern和Nancy Stepan的著作中，了解到優(yōu)生學(xué)在美洲有著各式各樣的實(shí)施方式，而且他們經(jīng)常創(chuàng)造自己的科學(xué)語言和術(shù)語。

這種方法使我能夠從不同的角度探索墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)的發(fā)展，包括墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)協(xié)會(huì)的成員在個(gè)人和國家層面上對(duì)家庭的形成所產(chǎn)生的影響，以及誰屬于和不屬于墨西哥民族的定義。這本書稿的主要論點(diǎn)是，優(yōu)生學(xué)并不是簡單地消失，而是繼續(xù)在個(gè)人管理自己身體的過程中，國家有關(guān)公共衛(wèi)生危機(jī)的措施，如艾滋病毒流行、殘疾和人口控制問題中繼續(xù)存在著。

總的來說，這個(gè)著作引入了“狡猾的優(yōu)生學(xué)”這個(gè)概念，以解釋墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)思想的持續(xù)發(fā)展和影響，我認(rèn)為，這些思想至今繼續(xù)塑造著民族的繁衍。

My MA thesis at Columbia University in the City of New York focused on the mediatic representations of the eugenic experimentations with the contraceptive pill in Puerto Rico, which is a colony of the United States of America. This led me to find broader transnational connections with the different societies of eugenics all throughout the Americas and Europe. This led me to find the works of Alexandra Stern and Nancy Stepan who argue that the ways in which eugenics was carried out in the Americas was multifarious and they often created their own scientific language and terminology. This approach enabled me to explore the development of eugenics in Mexico from different angles, including the impact members of the Mexican Society of Eugenics had on the making of the family at an individual and national level, and the definition of who does—and does not—belong to the Mexican nation. The main argument of this book manuscript is that eugenics did not simply disappear but continues to be seen in the processes through which individuals manage their own bodies, as well as in state measures concerning public health crises such as the HIV epidemic, disability, and issues of population control. Overall, this work introduces the concept of slippery eugenics to account for the ongoing development and impact of eugenic ideas in Mexico, which, I argue, continue to shape the reproduction of the nation into the present.

龔鵬程：您雖年輕，但在拉丁美洲研究這個(gè)領(lǐng)域已經(jīng)很具有發(fā)言權(quán)。您做過一系列的特約講座，如 “在色盲世界中表現(xiàn)黑人激進(jìn)主義”， “拉丁美洲的性別暴力”， “格雷羅的土著人、種族主義和絕育”等。您剛才還還提出了 “狡猾的優(yōu)生學(xué)”的概念，以及它在現(xiàn)實(shí)社會(huì)上的存在狀況。請(qǐng)您再接著談一談“狡猾的優(yōu)生學(xué)”與當(dāng)下種族和種族主義研究的相關(guān)性。

散澤-芮薇拉：迄今為止，我的主要貢獻(xiàn)是結(jié)論性地證明了優(yōu)生學(xué)并不是簡單地消失，而是繼續(xù)在個(gè)人管理自己身體的過程中，國家有關(guān)公共衛(wèi)生危機(jī)的措施，如艾滋病毒流行、殘疾和人口控制問題中繼續(xù)存在著�？偟膩碚f，我的作品引入了狡猾的優(yōu)生學(xué)的創(chuàng)新概念，以解釋墨西哥優(yōu)生學(xué)思想的持續(xù)發(fā)展和影響，我認(rèn)為，這些思想至今繼續(xù)塑造著這個(gè)國家的再生產(chǎn)。

例如，在目前的學(xué)術(shù)研究中，我們已經(jīng)看到了人們是如何倡導(dǎo)回歸優(yōu)生理念的，Jorge Linares Santiago (他在墨西哥，是墨西哥國立大學(xué)社會(huì)科學(xué)和人文學(xué)系的系主任)，Stephen Hsu (美國物理學(xué)家，密歇根州立大學(xué)助理教授），他的哈佛博士學(xué)位包含了提倡優(yōu)生的主張，以及每年一次的倫敦大學(xué)學(xué)院優(yōu)生思想會(huì)議。

這些都證明了“狡猾的優(yōu)生學(xué)”與今天的種族和種族主義研究的相關(guān)性�？偟膩碚f，狡猾的優(yōu)生學(xué)動(dòng)搖了優(yōu)生學(xué)的分期，以此來指出“種族主義的表現(xiàn)已經(jīng)滲透到社會(huì)生活，并改變了他們的呈現(xiàn)方式”。

我認(rèn)為，狡猾的優(yōu)生學(xué)能幫助我們了解 “種族”科學(xué)的遺留問題是如何滲透進(jìn)墨西哥民族主義——一個(gè)“混血國家在社會(huì)、科學(xué)、醫(yī)學(xué)和文化上的理解。我未來的研究項(xiàng)目將擴(kuò)展至與種族主義和殘疾主義優(yōu)生實(shí)踐（特別關(guān)注）有關(guān)的狡猾優(yōu)生學(xué)，即墨西哥的殘疾人和土著人的系統(tǒng)性絕育。

The main contribution of my research thus far has been, to demonstrate quite conclusively that eugenics did not simply disappear but continues to be seen in the processes through which individuals manage their own bodies, as well as in state measures concerning public health crises such as the HIV epidemic, disability, and issues of population control. Overall, my work introduces the innovative concept of slippery eugenics to account for the ongoing development and impact of eugenic ideas in Mexico, which, I argue, continue to shape the reproduction of the nation into the present. For instance in current scholarship, we have seen how people are now advocating for a return to eugenic ideas like Jorge Linares Santiago (who is in Mexico and is the head of the social sciences and humanities department in the UNAM), Stephen Hsu (an American physicist and Assistant Professor at Michigan State University whose Harvard PhD contained claims advocating for eugenic, and the yearly UCL conference on eugenic ideas. These all demonstrate the relevance of ‘slippery eugenics’ to studies of race and racism today. Overall, Slippery eugenics shakes the periodization of eugenics as a way of showing how ‘expressions of racism have infiltrated social life and transformed their modes of presentation’ (Moreno Figueroa 2006: 17). I argue that slippery eugenics provides the tools to understand how the legacies of ‘race’ science have penetrated social, scientific, medical, and cultural understandings of Mexican nationalism as a ‘mestizo (mixedraced) nation’. My future research project will expand on slippery eugenics in relation to racist and ableist eugenic practices (with a special focus) on the systemic sterilization of people constructed as disabled and indigenous peoples in Mexico.

龔鵬程：研究種族主義的多年，您認(rèn)為大學(xué)在種族主義中扮演了什么角色? 學(xué)術(shù)界能做些什么來對(duì)抗種族主義?

散澤-芮薇拉：我相信大學(xué)在反對(duì)種族主義方面發(fā)揮著重要作用。作為學(xué)者，我們的工作是以一種交叉的方式與社會(huì)不平等作斗爭。

此外，大學(xué)需要努力實(shí)現(xiàn)包容性、多樣性，更重要的是，積極打擊種族主義。

在我任教的社會(huì)學(xué)系，我們有一個(gè)去殖民化社會(huì)學(xué)工作組，這個(gè)組正式成立于2017年10月，它的主要目標(biāo)是實(shí)現(xiàn)上述部門的去殖民化。為了實(shí)現(xiàn)這一點(diǎn)，工作小組“收集有關(guān)部門去殖民化的實(shí)際措施上的建議”，“實(shí)施切實(shí)可行的措施，使部門生活的各個(gè)方面去殖民化”，評(píng)估、代表，并與劍橋校內(nèi)外其他去殖民化倡議合作。

此外，在劍橋大學(xué)，我們還有“終結(jié)日常種族主義”倡議，這是一個(gè)由社會(huì)學(xué)系的Ella McPherson博士和Monica Moreno Figueroa博士獨(dú)立開發(fā)的研究項(xiàng)目。在他們的官方網(wǎng)站上，表示:“該項(xiàng)目旨在通過數(shù)字、描述性和地理證據(jù)來發(fā)展我們對(duì)日常種族主義的理解，以建立一個(gè)集體案例，支持大學(xué)和更多地方的反種族主義宣傳和社會(huì)正義行動(dòng)主義�！�

此外，我認(rèn)為傾聽學(xué)生們的擔(dān)憂是非常重要的，尤其是在學(xué)校里討論和對(duì)抗反黑人身份的時(shí)候。這就是為什么劍橋大學(xué)和學(xué)院成立了不同的工作小組，致力于發(fā)現(xiàn)這些機(jī)構(gòu)中的奴隸制遺留問題。

I believe universities play a big role in fighting racism. It is our job as academics to combat social inequalities in an intersectional manner. Additionally, universities need to work towards inclusivity, diversity, and, more importantly, fighting actively against racism. In the department of sociology where I am an Affiliate Lecturer, we have the Decolonize Sociology working group. This group was officially founded in October 2017. Its main goal is the decolonisation of the abovementioned department. In order todo this, the working group ‘collects suggestions and input about practical measures to decolonise the department’, ‘implement practical measures to decolonise all aspects of departmental life’, and assess, represent and collaborate with other decolonisation initiatives in and outside of Cambridge. Additionally, at the University of Cambridge we also have the End Everyday Racism initiative which is an independent research project developed by Dr Ella McPherson and Dr Monica Moreno Figueroa who are based at the department of Sociology. On their official website it is stated that this ‘project aims to develop our understanding of everyday racism with numeric, descriptive and geographic evidence, in order to build a collective case to support antiracism advocacy and social justice activism at the University and further afield’. Additionally, I think it is very important to hear the concerns of our students especially when discussing and fighting anti-Blackness in institutions. This is why the university and colleges at Cambridge are founding the different working groups that work towards uncovering the legacies of slavery in these institutions.

龔鵬程：您的研究涉及許多社會(huì)問題，尤其是種族主義。您認(rèn)為學(xué)術(shù)研究可以如何影響政策制定者?其主要的挑戰(zhàn)是什么?

散澤-芮薇拉：我認(rèn)為，我們面臨的最大挑戰(zhàn)，是在種族主義中體制結(jié)構(gòu)上的權(quán)利格局被禁錮。當(dāng)一個(gè)機(jī)構(gòu)的體制建立在繼續(xù)排斥和歧視黑人和有色人種的種族主義的（做法和政策）基礎(chǔ)上時(shí)，就很難打擊種族主義。

作為學(xué)者，我們需要參與到積極分子、實(shí)踐者、決策者和公眾成員關(guān)于社會(huì)問題的持續(xù)對(duì)話中，比如種族主義的結(jié)構(gòu)性動(dòng)態(tài)，以及它們?nèi)绾闻c其他核心壓迫手段一起運(yùn)作，比如性別歧視、性別暴力、殘疾歧視、階級(jí)歧視等等。

我認(rèn)為，我們的工作應(yīng)超越研究和教學(xué)，并應(yīng)在政策和實(shí)踐的影響下，積極幫助緩解緊張局勢和打破世界上的不平等。

例如，我通過公費(fèi)獎(jiǎng)學(xué)金與許多學(xué)術(shù)界以外的人合作，在與肯特大學(xué)的Rebecca Ogden博士的合作下，我們決定制作Cuerpa Politica播客，這個(gè)播客討論的是拉丁美洲對(duì)生育正義的追求，該地區(qū)的生育政策是世界上最具爭議的政策之一。在這里，我們與學(xué)者、積極分子、從業(yè)者和實(shí)踐者談?wù)撍麄冊趯で笊杂煞矫娴慕?jīng)驗(yàn)。

同樣，我和劍橋大學(xué)的一群學(xué)者成立了生育正義研究網(wǎng)絡(luò)，這是一系列的研討會(huì)(對(duì)公眾開放)，通過交叉視角來尋求生育正義，這使我們能夠利用我們的平臺(tái)向人們宣傳社會(huì)不平等、生育不公正、環(huán)境種族主義、跨性別問題、性別暴力等問題。

I think our biggest challenge is the structural dynamics of power that are cemented in racism. It is very hard to combat racism when the structure of an institution is based on racist practices and policies that continue to marginalise and discriminate against Black people and people of colour. We, as academics, need to be involved in the constant conversations that activists, practitioners, policymakers, and members of the public have regarding social issues like the structural dynamics of racism and how they operate in conjunction with other axes of oppression like sexism, gender violence, ableism, classism, among others. I believe that our work should go beyond research and teaching, and should involve an active participation in the influence of policies and practices that help ease tensions as well as breaking the structural dynamics of inequalities in the world. For instance, I have collaborated-through public scholarship-with many people outside of academia. In collaboration with Dr Rebecca Ogden from the University of Kent, we decided to do the Cuerpa Politica podcast. This podcast deals with the quest for reproductive justice in Latin America which has one of the most contentious reproductive policies in the world. Here, we talk to academics, activists, practitioners and activists about their experiences in the quest for reproductive freedom. Similarly, a group of scholars from the University of Cambridge and I have founded the Reproductive Justice Research Network which is a series of seminars (which are open to the general public) about the quest for reproductive justice through intersectional lenses. This has allowed us to use our platform to inform people about issues around social inequalities, reproductive in-justices, environmental racism, trans issues, gender violence, among many others.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現(xiàn)為中國孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長、美國龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。