龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第一百期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類(lèi)社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過(guò)“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

德懷特·珀金斯教授（Professor Dwight H. Perkins）

哈佛大學(xué)政治經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)教授。

龔鵬程教授：您好。對(duì)于東亞和東南亞國(guó)家的經(jīng)濟(jì)歷史和發(fā)展，歷來(lái)有兩種觀點(diǎn)，一派認(rèn)為東亞受儒家、佛教、道教、印度教之影響，不能發(fā)展出資本主義現(xiàn)代經(jīng)濟(jì)。傳統(tǒng)與現(xiàn)代是斷裂的、阻隔的。一派認(rèn)為不然，傳統(tǒng)儒佛道仍可以發(fā)展出資本主義。中國(guó)受韋伯(Max Weber)影響，主要采取前一種態(tài)度。美國(guó)則在二十世紀(jì)初即有中國(guó)人陳煥章留學(xué)哥倫比亞，寫(xiě)《孔門(mén)理財(cái)學(xué)》，溝通儒學(xué)與自由經(jīng)濟(jì)。后來(lái)賴(lài)世和、費(fèi)正清也比較注意日本經(jīng)濟(jì)的發(fā)展，所以在傳統(tǒng)與現(xiàn)代之間會(huì)有較寬容的想法。您對(duì)這類(lèi)思想上的分歧或爭(zhēng)議，有何看法？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：龔教授，您好。在東亞的歷史傳統(tǒng)中，有一些對(duì)后來(lái)的現(xiàn)代經(jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展有利的因素，也有一些不利的因素。 在不利的一面，儒家希望向后看一些早期的理想狀態(tài)，這導(dǎo)致了保守的觀點(diǎn)，使中國(guó)和其他國(guó)家無(wú)法做出經(jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展所需的改變。 另一方面，儒家強(qiáng)調(diào)教育的重要性，為中國(guó)提供了良好的人力資本基礎(chǔ)；一旦其他變革得以實(shí)現(xiàn)，經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)和發(fā)展就成為可能。 這種人力資本的積累，也可以看作的資本主義發(fā)展的基礎(chǔ)。

當(dāng)然，歷史上的儒家學(xué)者并不一定是因此目的而提倡教育的。因此，儒家在歷史某些特定時(shí)期可能使得中國(guó)發(fā)展顯示出了滯后性，但在另一時(shí)期，儒家也促進(jìn)了中國(guó)的發(fā)展。而佛教道教亦然。

總體而言，我認(rèn)為佛教和道教對(duì)東亞的現(xiàn)代經(jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展沒(méi)有什么有利或不利的影響。佛教在進(jìn)入中國(guó)以后被本土化了，與道教一起經(jīng)常成為君王維護(hù)統(tǒng)治的工具。雖然它們?cè)谒枷肷蠈?duì)中國(guó)人形成了一定程度的禁錮，但是即使是在寺院中，各種各樣的經(jīng)濟(jì)形式也是普遍存在的。

There were elements in East Asia’s historical traditions that were favorable to later modern economic development and other elements that were not favorable. On the unfavorable side, the Confucian desire to look backward toward some early ideal state led to conservative views that held China and others back from making changes required for economic development. On the other hand, Confucian emphasis on the importance of education provided a good human capital foundation for China once other changes were made that made economic growth and development possible. This accumulation of human capital can also be seen as a quasi-capitalist development. But, of course, Confucian scholars throughout history did not necessarily advocate education for this purpose. Thus, Confucianism may have caused China's development to lag at specific periods in history, but at other times it has also contributed to China's development. The same can be said of Buddhism and Taoism. Overall I would say Buddhism and Daoism had little influence favorable or unfavorable on East Asia’s modern economic development. Buddhism was localised after it entered China and, along with Taoism, was often used as a tool by sovereigns to maintain their regime. Although they formed a degree of intellectual confinement for the Chinese, various forms of the economy were prevalent even in the temples.

龔鵬程教授：您如何評(píng)價(jià)中國(guó)大陸這些年從中央計(jì)劃到市場(chǎng)的過(guò)渡？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：總的來(lái)說(shuō)，中國(guó)從中央計(jì)劃的指令性經(jīng)濟(jì)向主要由市場(chǎng)力量支配的經(jīng)濟(jì)迅速、相對(duì)平穩(wěn)和有效地過(guò)渡。轉(zhuǎn)型過(guò)程中的一個(gè)不完整因素，是國(guó)有企業(yè)繼續(xù)發(fā)揮著核心作用。 這些企業(yè)獲得了私營(yíng)企業(yè)所沒(méi)有的優(yōu)勢(shì)，盡管私營(yíng)企業(yè)的投資回報(bào)率高得多。

這種過(guò)渡是成功的，因?yàn)樗沟弥袊?guó)的經(jīng)濟(jì)實(shí)力、文化實(shí)力等國(guó)家實(shí)力都得到增強(qiáng)。雖然其中國(guó)有企業(yè)的核心作用巨大，但是私營(yíng)企業(yè)是不可或缺的一股力量，如果沒(méi)有它們，中國(guó)不可能有現(xiàn)在突飛猛進(jìn)的發(fā)展。

Overall China had a rapid and relatively smooth and effective transition from a centrally planned command economy to an economy governed mainly by market forces. The one incomplete component of the transition was the continued central role played by state owned enterprises. These enterprises received advantages not available to the private enterprises despite the fact that the private enterprises experienced much higher rates of return to investment. The transition has been successful as it has led to an increase in China's economic strength, cultural strength and other national strengths. While the central role of state owned enterprises in this has been enormous, the private enterprises have been an indispensable force without which China could not have developed as rapidly as it has.

龔鵬程教授：您現(xiàn)在看，東亞增長(zhǎng)的基本來(lái)源有什么變化嗎？法律機(jī)構(gòu)在東亞經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)中的作用又如何？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：東亞大部分地區(qū)的法律機(jī)構(gòu)普遍薄弱和不發(fā)達(dá)，這是阻礙該地區(qū)充分發(fā)揮其潛力的一個(gè)障礙。 新加坡和香港是個(gè)例外，至少在商業(yè)領(lǐng)域，法律制度是相當(dāng)強(qiáng)大的。 在越南，黨可以推翻正式的法律制度，這是一個(gè)嚴(yán)重的弱點(diǎn)。 印度尼西亞和柬埔寨的法律體系因其他原因而薄弱，這導(dǎo)致了大量腐敗和其他問(wèn)題

Legal institutions in much of East Asia are generally weak and underdeveloped and this is a barrier to the region reaching its full potential. The exceptions are Singapore and Hong Kong where at least in the commercial sphere the legal systems are quite strong. The fact that the Party can overrule the formal legal system in Vietnam is a serious weakness. The legal systems in Indonesia and Cambodia are weak for other reasons and this leads to much corruption among other problems.

龔鵬程教授：您怎么看印度尼西亞？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：從20世紀(jì)70年代末到90年代初，印度尼西亞有一個(gè)有效的發(fā)展戰(zhàn)略，導(dǎo)致了不依賴(lài)自然資源出口和高自然資源價(jià)格的穩(wěn)定增長(zhǎng)。經(jīng)濟(jì)領(lǐng)導(dǎo)層保持匯率不被高估，并取消了對(duì)工業(yè)的過(guò)度進(jìn)口替代法規(guī)，使工業(yè)部門(mén)有可能快速增長(zhǎng)。然而，在20世紀(jì)90年代末，腐敗變得猖獗，導(dǎo)致印度尼西亞在1997-1998年的金融危機(jī)中遭受損失。隨后的政府又回到了對(duì)自然資源出口的依賴(lài)，工業(yè)發(fā)展和工業(yè)出口受到影響。然而，在最近幾年，政府作出了重大努力，來(lái)增強(qiáng)經(jīng)濟(jì)中嚴(yán)重欠發(fā)達(dá)的基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施。

Indonesia from the late 1970s through to the early 1990s had an effective development strategy that led to steady growth that was not dependent on natural resource exports and high natural resource prices. The economic leadership kept the exchange rate from becoming overvalued and deregulated excessive import substituting regulations on industry that made it possible for the industrial sector to grow rapid. In the late 1990s, however, corruption become rampant contributing to Indonesia’s suffering from the financial crisis on 1997-1998. Subsequent governments went back to relying more on natural resource exports and industrial development and industrial exports suffered. In the most recent years, however, the government has made major efforts to strengthen the seriously underdeveloped infrastructure of the economy.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書(shū)院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門(mén)等地舉辦過(guò)書(shū)法展。現(xiàn)為中國(guó)孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、臺(tái)灣國(guó)立東華大學(xué)終身榮譽(yù)教授、美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。